Outdoor photoperiod seedlings - same regime, different problems

[Landracey]

Hello to experienced growers, can you help me, even if it's just reassurance?

This is my second grow. Photoperiod sativa - Kwazulu Natal - just like last year. Northern European climate. Started a month earlier than last year. Seeds took longer to germinate (five days), but what's bothering me is the different outcomes for these plants, even though they have the same soil mix, and water regime. One plant is doing well, the one that grew faster than the others last week has now wilted, and the third plant is also drooping with what looks like yellowing leaves.

I wonder if I made a mistake giving them tap water the first time (I've since moved onto mineral water with PH of 6.8) but surely all the plants would show chlorine damage, or the alkaline content would prevent them all from taking up nutrients. Maybe it is the cold weather (last year I planted out in June, rather than May) or lack of sunlight, but again surely this would affect all the plants?

I have not fed the plants any nutes yet because the soil (peat-free compost) is supposed to feed the plants for the first few weeks.

Anything I am missing? Thanks for any feedback.

 

[Papa OG]

Looks overwatered. Are you following a proper wet dry cycle? larger pots with small plants are harder to water properly!

 

[Dwight Monk]

Are you planting in ground outside or staying in containers? Lack of light make them leggy, but can bury stem deeper if you going in ground or going to bigger pots. 6.8 a little on the high side if you are checking PH, different points of view on that one along with different for different things like soil or soilless medium, also variance of accuracy on how you are checking PH as to how much accuracy on your reading. It's real easy to over water on little ones, as stated above as they really don't use a lot until they get a bigger and better root system/root ball.

 

[013]

First we need more info on your soil mix to properly advise.
What kind of soil?
Did you modify it?
With what?

Different outcomes between siblings are to be expected. Yes even amongst exact same Kwakizulu strain, those are not identical triplets or identical quadruplets. Yes same family so defs related but each is a genetically unique individual that will vary in phenotype expressions like size, physical appearance, % of indica vs sativa, THC levels, terps, reaction to nutes/feed and so on.

Mineral water at 6.8 ph is too high for plants grown in soil. Absolutely, you nailed it- a portion of nutrients are unavailable to the plant when delivered at that ph range. Typically for soil the ph value of your liquids need to be set at 6.3

Yep overwatered, more water doesn’t equal more growth or faster growth. More water means less oxygen in the soil, roots need to see the whole range from wet to dry it’s called wet dry cycle. The droop says it’s a small plant and can’t use the current amount of water that fast. Needs to dry out….

Two methods for helping them dry out…1) tilt them to steep 45 degree angle and prop them so they won’t tumble. Leave them titled that way for a few hours and should force them to pee out excess water. 2) Place cups on elevated grate, improvise like cookie sheet with a soup can under each corner and have small fan gently moving air underneath plants.

Right now watering on set schedule is bad, and feel fairly confident the overwatered one will turn around if it’s dried out for few days.

 

[Landracey]

Looks overwatered. Are you following a proper wet dry cycle? larger pots with small plants are harder to water properly!

Amen to that. I lifted the pot containing the drooping plant and it was heavier than the others. Thanks for your input.

 

[Landracey]

Are you planting in ground outside or staying in containers? Lack of light make them leggy, but can bury stem deeper if you going in ground or going to bigger pots. 6.8 a little on the high side if you are checking PH, different points of view on that one along with different for different things like soil or soilless medium, also variance of accuracy on how you are checking PH as to how much accuracy on your reading. It's real easy to over water on little ones, as stated above as they really don't use a lot until they get a bigger and better root system/root ball.

Yes, I am planting into bigger containers so hopefully I can bury the stems deeper. But I only repotted them from the germination tray last week so I think I will have to wait another couple of weeks before they are ready to be transplanted again, right? Also with the PH, the plants were fine last year on the same regime and I took them to harvest. But I was worried throughout that I wasn't maximising their uptake of nutes because the PH was almost neutral.

 

[Landracey]

First we need more info on your soil mix to properly advise.
What kind of soil?
Did you modify it?
With what?

Different outcomes between siblings are to be expected. Yes even amongst exact same Kwakizulu strain, those are not identical triplets or identical quadruplets. Yes same family so defs related but each is a genetically unique individual that will vary in phenotype expressions like size, physical appearance, % of indica vs sativa, THC levels, terps, reaction to nutes/feed and so on.

Mineral water at 6.8 ph is too high for plants grown in soil. Absolutely, you nailed it- a portion of nutrients are unavailable to the plant when delivered at that ph range. Typically for soil the ph value of your liquids need to be set at 6.3

Yep overwatered, more water doesn’t equal more growth or faster growth. More water means less oxygen in the soil, roots need to see the whole range from wet to dry it’s called wet dry cycle. The droop says it’s a small plant and can’t use the current amount of water that fast. Needs to dry out….

Two methods for helping them dry out…1) tilt them to steep 45 degree angle and prop them so they won’t tumble. Leave them titled that way for a few hours and should force them to pee out excess water. 2) Place cups on elevated grate, improvise like cookie sheet with a soup can under each corner and have small fan gently moving air underneath plants.

Right now watering on set schedule is bad, and feel fairly confident the overwatered one will turn around if it’s dried out for few days.

Thank you for your feedback. I never thought to consider each typical plant (from the strain) to be idiosyncratic, but now I will! The tip about tilting the plant pot is also something Ive never heard before, and I will try that. Thanks.

The soil is peat free and PH neutral, a 60/40 vermiculate mix. No nutes added to the soil, and the plants have not been fertilized.

 

[013]

Thank you for your feedback. I never thought to consider each typical plant (from the strain) to be idiosyncratic, but now I will! The tip about tilting the plant pot is also something Ive never heard before, and I will try that. Thanks.

The soil is peat free and PH neutral, a 60/40 vermiculate mix. No nutes added to the soil, and the plants have not been fertilized.

Hmmm peat free…. dunno but sounds like it may be soilless which is not the same as soil.. might help the support crew if you can drop pics of the bag or brand name. For soil we aim ph efforts towards obtaining 6.3 but for hydro, coco & soilless we aim for 5.8 so there’s pretty big gap and the plant always knows even if we don’t.

 

[Lerugged]

Looks over watered to me. Where are the seeds from?
Hang around. You have some experienced growers to help you out. Sure you will get them sorted. Fingers crossed

 

[SmokingWings]

The soil is peat free and PH neutral, a 60/40 vermiculate mix. No nutes added to the soil, and the plants have not been fertilized.

Most likely the reason the plants are looking like they are over-watered is because the vermiculite is retaining more water than we are realizing. It does not hold as much as peat moss and it does let whatever water it has absorbed evaporate faster than if the same amount of peat had been used but it is holding on to a lot of liquid. The size of the containers and the size of the plants and it could take up to a week before more water is needed.

It should be easy to come up with a couple of work-around ideas depending on your thoughts and answers. Did you mix the compost and vermiculite yourself or is it a bagged mix from the store? Is there a reason why you want a 'peat-free' soil mix? Same sort of question but with Perlite. Why no Perlite in the mix?

Every now and then I have run into similar situations and end up building a new soil mix in time for the next transplanting. And often using the original soil that showed problems as the base for the new mix.

 

[Lerugged]

I'd say far too much vermiculite. I'd also add in plenty perlite as above. Much more perlite than vermiculite. I use them as 1 part vermiculite and 5 parts perlite. So 5 times more perlite than vermiculite.
Then I use 3 parts Potting soil. 1 part compost and 1 part ewc. Add in the perlite and you have a great base to work from. Then you can add in bone and blood meal and all the rest.
If they were mine I'd get them into new soil that's very airy.

 

[Lerugged]

I'd also take them off the tray of vermiculite. KwaZulu likes it humid around the leaves. The roots should be in well draining soil. That's where your perlite comes in.

 

[Phytoplankton]

Depending on what minerals are in the mineral water, it could be contributing to your problems, though I do agree with overwatering being the primary issue.

 

[Landracey]

Looks over watered to me. Where are the seeds from?
Hang around. You have some experienced growers to help you out. Sure you will get them sorted. Fingers crossed

Seeds are from World of Seeds. Good point about the vermiculite retaining water, and not being nearly as drainable as perlite (why is it even associated with perlite as a soil-aerating product?).

I took your advice and re-potted the two struggling plants. Neither has progressed since last week and I doubt whether they will recover from their shock.

 

[Landracey]

Most likely the reason the plants are looking like they are over-watered is because the vermiculite is retaining more water than we are realizing. It does not hold as much as peat moss and it does let whatever water it has absorbed evaporate faster than if the same amount of peat had been used but it is holding on to a lot of liquid. The size of the containers and the size of the plants and it could take up to a week before more water is needed.

It should be easy to come up with a couple of work-around ideas depending on your thoughts and answers. Did you mix the compost and vermiculite yourself or is it a bagged mix from the store? Is there a reason why you want a 'peat-free' soil mix? Same sort of question but with Perlite. Why no Perlite in the mix?

Every now and then I have run into similar situations and end up building a new soil mix in time for the next transplanting. And often using the original soil that showed problems as the base for the new mix.

Thanks for your feedback. I should have used perlite but it was sold out in the store and being lazy I just went for vermiculate, assuming it would do the same job - mistake no. 1. I did mix it myself in a 2:1 ratio with peat-free (ph neutral) compost designed for seedlings/cuttings with no added nutes. Then the overwatering - mistake no. 2.

Anyway, one week on, and they haven't died, but nor have they added any new growth. What is the longest that a plant has been in shock and made a full recovery, I wonder.

 

[Landracey]

Depending on what minerals are in the mineral water, it could be contributing to your problems, though I do agree with overwatering being the primary issue.

Is it bro-science to assume that the relatively low mineral content, and broad spectrum, of spring water is nothing but beneficial to plants?

 

[Lerugged]

Give them a week to 10 days and they should get going. Keep the soil moist but not wet. Did you water them when you put them into the new soil? I'm guessing yes which is the correct thing to do. The soil should drain better now. They need to grow new healthy roots so it will take time to recover.

 

[bluter]

what are those things in now ?
they need out of whatever they were planted them in. toss the vermiculite.

what is the long term plan for outdoor ? are they going in the ground or staying in containers ? do you have a feeding plan and nutes lined up ?

 

[SmokingWings]

Good point about the vermiculite retaining water, and not being nearly as drainable as perlite (why is it even associated with perlite as a soil-aerating product?).

I should have used perlite but it was sold out in the store and being lazy I just went for vermiculate, assuming it would do the same job - mistake no. 1. I did mix it myself in a 2:1 ratio with peat-free (ph neutral) compost designed for seedlings/cuttings with no added nutes. Then the overwatering - mistake no. 2.

More like the Vermiculite is associated as a substitute for peat moss. We learned to use peat to help hold water and help to improve the tilth or loosening of the soil. The Perlite was for a bit of aeration, to help provide some water retention and to also improve the tilth. For the class we could mix 1/3 Perlite and 1/3 Vermiculite with 1/3 dirt or compost.

The use of Vermiculite in not anywhere near as popular as it was years ago.

 

[Sativa1970]

What are your day/ night temps. Low temps not only show the same symptoms of over water it slows uptake and slows evaporation creating an over watered situation. Circular compounding effect.

Spring water is a generic term for potable water containing minerals. Every source has a different chemical make up and concentration. Bottled spring water can contain added minerals and even chlorine. Non of these should be any where near the max tolerance of your plant. Adding micro to your spring water can push it too high. My water source is .1EC (80PPM) cal/mag so adding more created an over dose. Chemical analysis is available for most purchased brands.